Cattle Feeders Share Their Wishlist, Predictions — Kee Jim and Mike Thoren Discuss Future

The days of feed cards and calculators have given way to computer-balanced rations, mixed pens of cattle have become more uniform and carcass-based premiums are now figured into the target rather than an afterthought, but the main objectives of cattle feeders remain the same today as they were decades ago. Two well-known names in the cattle feeding business join us for this episode capturing their history, the kind of cattle they’re currently demanding and an outlook on the future of that segment of the industry. It covers everything from beef-on-dairy systems and roller compacted concrete to advice Angus breeders can take to heart.

HOSTS: Mark McCully and Miranda Reiman

GUESTS:
Kee Jim, of G.K. Jim Farms and founding partner of Feedlot Health Management Services, hails from Okotoks, Alberta. After growing up on a ranch and the earning his degree from the Western College of Veterinary Medicine in Saskatchewan in 1983, he began his entrepreneurial and his feedyard consulting career in tandem, always looking to the data to answer the toughest questions. In addition, he feeds cattle across North America. Among the numerous accolades he’s received, Kee was recently inducted into the Cattle Feeders Hall of Fame.

Mike Thoren has served as the president and CEO of Five Rivers since it began in 2005. Before that he held various roles for ConiBeef and Continental Grain Company, including CEO, feedyard general manager and feedlot operations. He earned a masters in ag economics and a bachelor’s in ag business from Washington State University. 

This podcast is brought to you by Westway Feed Products. Visit westwayfeed.com for more information.  

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Transcript

Miranda Reiman (00:00:02):
Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman with my co-host, CEO of the American Angus Association, Mark McCully.

Mark McCully (00:00:10):
Hello, Miranda. We are, been enjoying the Sunshine State down here in Orlando at the National Cattleman's Beef Association Cattle Industry Convention, and we're here in the trade show and it is bustling. There are a lot of folks here.

Miranda Reiman (00:00:22):
Yeah, there's been all kinds of people stopping by with questions either on programs or breeders here, talking about tools that we have. I think it's been good. We joke, we don't want to say too many conversations, but good conversations about anything from ways to be involved in Angus to maybe if they want to be involved in the Certified Angus Beef Program more.

Mark McCully (00:00:43):
Yeah, we really have all the entities represented here and we've got members and breeders that show up and this is a bit of a home base maybe for them. And then we've got commercial folks that have come in and we've talked to some new producers that are in the decision process of what they're going to do in their program around genetics and marketing. And so you're right, it's just a great place to have a lot of really, really... get to meet up with a lot of folks and have a lot of great conversations.

Miranda Reiman (00:01:11):
We are going to totally change gears, I would say today in our programming in that we usually have breeders on or we have folks kind of intimately involved in the cow-calf sector of the business. But today we're going to switch gears to the cattle feeders and I will say last night at the bar, I mentioned to somebody that cattle feeders are some of my favorite people and somebody went, are they? But I think that this episode will prove why.

Mark McCully (00:01:37):
Yeah. We had a couple guys that I have a ton of respect for, Dr. Kee Jim, who is tonight being inducted into the Cattle Feeders Hall of Fame, and we got to talk to him a little about that. And Mike Thoren, who's the CEO of Five Rivers Cattle Feeding. So between those two guys, they influence an awful lot of cattle in the feeding industry, but maybe more importantly as it relates to scale their insight into the industry, they've seen it from a lot of different places. They're very, very innovative thinkers. They're influencers. So we got to pick their brain of where we think the seedstock industry ought to be thinking to prepare for where the feeding industry will likely be five and 10 years down the road.

Miranda Reiman (00:02:23):
It's probably cliche to say, we talked about challenges and opportunities, that's probably true in every podcast that we do, but I do think that they challenged maybe some conventional wisdom that's out there and also gave us a roadmap of some places that breeders as those kind of genetic engineers of the next kind of cattle that will be coming through the feedyard, places that maybe we can make some change in the business.

Mark McCully (00:02:43):
Absolutely. I think about our long range objectives, that's center one is increase the profitability of the commercial producer and the cattle feeder is obviously a big part of that. And so I think listening very intently sometimes it's not always what we want to hear, but we to hear what they're seeing, what they're experiencing, whether that's the cow-calf producer, whether that's the cattle feeder and how do we get better. And I think they gave us some good insight into areas where as a breed we're doing a good job and maybe some areas we can get better.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:14):
So let's give it a listen and then let us know what you think.

(00:03:19):
Well, we are here at NCBA convention and have two guests that are, I would say kind of giants in the feeding industry.

Mark McCully (00:03:25):
Very much so.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:27):
Leaders in the feeding industry. So we have Kee Jim sitting across from me, and Kee is going to be an inductee in the Cattle Feeders Hall of Fame this evening, so it'll be fun to celebrate him later. But Kee grew up in British Columbia on a ranch and have a lot of experience. Went to vet school and then after veterinary school, founding partner in feedlot health management services. And we'll be excited to have you tell us more of your story. So thanks for joining us today, Kee.

Kee Jim (00:03:52):
Yep. Thank you. Glad to be here

Mark McCully (00:03:54):
And congratulations. That's an incredible honor.

Kee Jim (00:03:56):
Thank you.

Mark McCully (00:03:57):
Looking forward to really good stories tonight at the banquet too.

Miranda Reiman (00:04:00):
That's right. And Mike Thoren is here on my other side, president and CEO of Five Rivers, bachelor in ag business and master's in ag econ from Washington State University. Began on the continental grain side of things and worked your way up through the company that now, if I have the facts right, 13 feedyards and market, 1.8 million head annually from Texas to Idaho.

Mike Thoren (00:04:22):
Yeah, that'd be about right.

Miranda Reiman (00:04:24):
Excellent. Good.

Mark McCully (00:04:25):
So this is the first time Miranda we've had, we've really been talking about the cattle feeding industry and I mean you two guys, you've said giants, truly you guys, between the two of you I know represent millions of cattle every year. And so I think it's just an incredible opportunity for you guys and we appreciate you coming on. And Sharon, you guys have both, we've had you, you've helped us in various roles, visited with our board of directors, help our board give insight. And so this is really cascading that out to some of our breeders and listeners to get into the minds of two of the giants in the cattle feeding industry. And so thanks for being with us.

Mike Thoren (00:05:01):
Thank you for having us.

Miranda Reiman (00:05:03):
So let's just start right at the beginning. Kee, maybe you want to start and just tell me a little bit of your story. So you grew up on a ranch, did six ...

Mark McCully (00:05:10):
You can leave the Hereford breeder part out.

Miranda Reiman (00:05:12):
Yeah, that's right.

Kee Jim (00:05:15):
Yeah. I grew up on a small ranch in the interior of BC in a pretty small, pretty small town, 50 people or so. And as I like to say, small far enough out in the tules that if you wanted a cat you had to actually have your own tomcat. That's far enough away. So the nearest feedlot was probably 800 miles from where I grew up. So really didn't start off with the connection with cattle feeding, but was fortunate enough to get off the ranch and go to veterinary school and graduated in 1983, started a feedlot consulting business and that grew significantly over the years, but probably more importantly, it gave me a great insight into cattle feeding. And in Western Canada, the business really started to take off in the late seventies and the mid eighties.

Miranda Reiman (00:06:13):
The timing was right.

Kee Jim (00:06:14):
Right place, right time. I mean that's critical for success. And by being involved and getting involved in buying of cattle and custom feeding cattle, it was probably the best time in history in North America to be doing that. And from the mid eighties until up until even as late as 2000, I mean we made nothing but money. It was 30, 40% return on investment. I just kept buying more and more and more cattle. And that's how I got started in cattle feeding and allowed me to grow GK Jim Farms from very small beginning into a significant cattle feeder here in North America, currently involved in feedlots in Texas and Colorado, New Mexico, and we're currently building a large lot in Nebraska. So been very fortunate and blessed to be part of a, growth of an industry from the beginning and feel pretty lucky to be here today.

Mark McCully (00:07:20):
And you've done some international work in your consulting business as well?

Kee Jim (00:07:24):
Yes, correct. The company has provided services in virtually every beef producing country in the world from Brazil, Argentina, Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, South Africa, where there's been either feedlot projects or some type of beef projects. And the consulting business has really given me a window of opportunity to observe production under a variety of different geographies, circumstances, political systems, but it's been a very powerful learning tool for me over the years.

Miranda Reiman (00:08:02):
So if you've ever filled out one of those, "what I want to be when I grow up" back in elementary school, was this on the list?

Kee Jim (00:08:08):
Not in my wildest dreams, not at all.

Miranda Reiman (00:08:12):
When you went to veterinary school, I mean you were going to be a general practice veterinarian, or what was your main goal there?

Kee Jim (00:08:19):
No, I never went into it. I was very young when I got into veterinary college, so I skipped a few grades in high school and I landed up in veterinary college when I was 17 years old, so I don't think you know a whole lot back then. And I was never convinced that a lot of veterinarians from birth wanted to be a veterinarian. I wasn't one of those people, but I figured out about midway through veterinary school that, not sure that I want to be a large animal practitioner, is there something else in the field? And I got connected with a fellow named Eugene Janzen who was a professor then was connected with the feedlot business and really stimulated my interest in the feedlot, and about mid vet school, I thought that's what I want to do. I want to work in the feedlot industry and I see a big opportunity to specialize. This goes back a long time 40 years ago, and just to be a feedlot-only veterinarian and bring data collection tools, I was very interested in computers and I was one of the first people to put computer chuteside for a collection of data at feedlots.

Mark McCully (00:09:36):
We got a little glimpse into the intellect of Dr. Kee Jim. I skipped a couple of grades and went to vet school. Not a lot of people say that.

Miranda Reiman (00:09:41):
I didn't start out by saying that when I mentioned to someone earlier that we were going to be interviewing Kee Jim, they said he's the smartest person I've ever met. So it's kind of intimidating. I will say.

Kee Jim (00:09:50):
That person hasn't met very many people.

Miranda Reiman (00:09:54):
I don't know about that. Mike. When I went to search the internet for some of your background, there wasn't a whole lot on it. So either you've had it expunged or I'm not real sure

Mike Thoren (00:10:03):
 Expunged, I mean the time I spent away from society,

Miranda Reiman (00:10:06):
Right.

Mike Thoren (00:10:07):
That's off the record. But no, so it's funny, Kee and I didn't grow up very far apart actually. I grew up right on the Canadian border in Washington State and stuff. And so in a very diversified agricultural situation, my dad was an ag lender. My grandparents of both sides were farmers, ranchers and stuff. And so I always had a lot of exposure and wheat and cattle type deals and stuff. And then through school I lived in an orchard area, so I spent a lot of time in apple orchards and stuff and working through that. And then hay and I always liked horses and cattle and stuff was around. My uncle was the head cowboy on a grow yard, essentially a grow yard situation. Sometimes we'd go help process cattle and stuff was kind of my first chance on a feedyard and it always kind of hit with me, just resonated the things. As you indicated, I have a degree in agribusiness, ag econ. So when I started I thought I wanted to be on the trade side and today that's really the least favorite part of my job. I really like the production and the people and stuff and I've learned a lot about the science and stuff in that and it's just been a fabulous business for me, fabulous industry and opportunities to learn and grow and be around great people and learn from people like Kee and stuff. It's been an exciting time.

Mark McCully (00:11:27):
And Mike, you came into Continental Grain at the time and truly worked your way all the way to the top through multiple transitions and evolutions of that company.

Mike Thoren (00:11:36):
Yeah, so in 1991, my wife and I moved from Washington state to the Texas and Oklahoma panhandle. I worked in the Texas panhandle, we worked in the Oklahoma panhandle, lived in the Texas panhandle and lived in a double wide by the railroad tracks where you could hear the grain dryers running all night.

Miranda Reiman (00:11:55):
And you were newlyweds at the time?

Mike Thoren (00:11:56):
We were newly wed. It was really a blessed time. We got along great. One day she was ready to move home to mom and she was packing her bags and I was like, Hey, don't take all the space. I'm going with you. Let's talk about this. But no, we toughed it out, sucked it up and learned so much and made so many great friends along the way and to the point. And our management training program is still largely structured that way you earn while you learn.

(00:12:22):
And so first day in is driving at horseback, do these things and stuff and really work hard through those deals and learned the production system and stuff. And that was a place where I excelled was just being able to do those things and being hands-on. I always, it's funny, my oldest son's a Marine and an officer and I'm always like, man, why would you want to do that? But when I think about my early days in the feedyard, the excitement, we do more exciting stuff before noon at a feed yard and the rest of society gets to do all month. So that's kind of the deal.

Miranda Reiman (00:12:55):
I love that.

Mark McCully (00:12:56):
Maybe real quick for those not familiar, so Conte beef to Five Rivers and you had some ownership change and maybe explain a little of that structure today

Mike Thoren (00:13:02):
Yeah, so Continental Grain started in the cattle feeding business in the middle seventies in Dalhart, Texas, and acquired yards and built a very successful business. And then in about 2003, or I had transitioned to CEO right before the mad cow. I'd been CEO for three months before we had

Miranda Reiman (00:13:26):
Nothing like easing into it.

Mike Thoren (00:13:27):
Yeah, welcome to the big leagues. But no, that was an interesting time. I was fortunate we had some excellent risk managers and analysts and stuff that really did, Tommy Beall did a fantastic job of determining where real demand would be and what the real market implications of a closure would be and stuff. And so we fared pretty well actually, but it was scary for a day or two or a week or two.

Miranda Reiman (00:13:52):
Kee's nodding his head.

Mike Thoren (00:13:53):
I think he had some real interesting times through those two, but we got through 'em.

(00:13:58):
But I'd say in 2005, I think it was Smithfield acquired what had been the ConAgra feedyards and was looking for a merger with Continental Grain. And so we merged those companies to become Five Rivers at that point and we ran in that 50 50 joint venture of Continental Grain Smithfield as Five Rivers till about 2009 if my memory serves me correct. And then JBS bought the company and so we worked as JBS Five Rivers for essentially the next 10 years. And then in 2018 we were spun out at JBS and became Five River standalone today held by Pinnacle Arcadia. Excellent. So it's been interesting, different equity structures and stuff all the way along, but each step has been a learning opportunity.

Kee Jim (00:14:59):
Mikey survived more regime changes than your average third-world country.

Miranda Reiman (00:15:05):
I like how he calls them learning opportunities.

Mike Thoren (00:15:07):
I think just keep your head down, Kee

Mark McCully (00:15:10):
Kee, feedlot health has changed a little in structure here over in Telus.

Kee Jim (00:15:14):
Yeah, it has. So I was the principal owner of the business for 37 years and roughly three years ago the company was purchased in its entirety by TELUS Agriculture. And TELUS Agriculture is a part of a much larger telecom company in Canada. Telus quite a large company, 18 billion top line kind of a company. I think you have a market cap of about 35 billion, but they've got interested in agriculture and they want to make a business of consequence out of their agricultural acquisitions. And they've acquired, I think about 15 or 16 companies, a similar theme to Feedlot Health, but across the entire food chain. They're in the agronomy, they're in post processing, consumer goods, all of that sort of thing. And it's been an interesting transition. All of the partners that formerly worked for Feedlot Health are still with TELUS Agriculture today, including myself. So they didn't quite get rid of all the deadwood by buying the company. And it's been another adventure right along the way to become part of, as Mike has had many transitions, this is a pretty significant transition for the company, but so far things have gone very well and we're pretty excited about the global opportunities going forward that being involved with an entity like TELUS can bring.

Mark McCully (00:16:58):
What of Telus, when they looked at Feedlot Health, what do you think was most appealing to your business to what they're trying to do?

Kee Jim (00:17:07):
I think the most appealing thing was that we had developed a considerable bit of software in and around feedlot production. So they were buying an established data analytics company, science-based, research-based, and wanted to use that type of platform to get involved in other species including aquaculture, dairy, pork, poultry. So it was really the overarching data platform and methodologies that they were buying. And the people, I mean we have 55 either DVMs, PhDs, epidemiologists, statisticians, I think have it's safe to say with the largest collection of beef cattle professionals, even greater than the faculty of a lot of universities. So it's the people and the tools that they were acquiring.

Miranda Reiman (00:18:04):
Intellect surrounded by intellect is what I'm hearing. Right? Yeah. So we've talked about how you guys' businesses have changed, but bring me back. If somebody were dropped in a feedyard in 1983 or 1991, how would they know that they'd went back in time? What's different in the feedyard today?

Kee Jim (00:18:24):
Well, ironically, over the 40 years that I've been involved in feedlot production, the core elements, what's been done, I wouldn't say has been transformed dramatically. I mean cattle are, they're

Miranda Reiman (00:18:44):
There'd still be pen riders.

Kee Jim (00:18:45):
Feedlots, our pens that hold cattle and you have to deliver feed to. But in saying that, the technologies that we employ and the tools that we employ have changed dramatically. And then the central theme in all of this has been got to get to scale, right? You've got to get your production facilities of an appropriate size that you can dilute overhead. And when I first started, I mean the first feedlot I worked for as a consultant had just built a new feedlot and it was 10,000 head and I thought, man, that's a big one. Feedlots probably aren't going to get any bigger than that, how it is. And today we like feedlots of 150,000 head in terms of the economies of scale. So really two things, size and technology. And I'm sure Mike can elaborate on that theme.

Mike Thoren (00:19:39):
Yeah, I would agree on those points. And I take it, I think about this often. I started in the fall of the year in 1991, and I can remember clear as a bell, we had one pen of straight black calves in a 48,000 head feedyard. A neighbor had sold us their calf crop and so they were really pen markers and stuff. We had tiger stripes and everything you can imagine, soup to nuts for cattle type, but we had one pen of black calves and I always paid a lot of attention to them. And today, if you go in that same feedyard in the fall of the year, it's going to be 85, 90% black hided. And a lot of them truly are Angus cattle and good Angus genetics. So I mean the impact you guys have had on the industry has been profound that way.

(00:20:20):
And I think a lot of the demand benefit that we've enjoyed over that time is a direct result of just better eating experience and better cattle too in essence. So that's been real. I think Kee alluded to scale, when I think about things, I was fortunate to go to work for Continental Grain, they understood the scale deal early on, so we were 50, 60,000 head yards in and have expanded them some from that, but always had yards of scale or typically did. And so always experienced that. But I think within the feedyard, just the size of the equipment and stuff and things like just little things like the office in technology and office feedyard offices used to have four or five people in there with big green chain printers and green bar paper and a lot of work and stuff. Feed cards, we used to have to add calling feed was a race all day long because you had ribbon printed cards and get 'em down, print 'em, run 'em on the 10 key as fast as you can to figure out what the next call is going to be. And so it was that time where we had some systems but it was still not very ... operated. And then just bigger feed trucks and fewer drivers and those types of things. I think Kee's point on other technologies and just computers and the chuteside computers and stuff that came and the amount of technology in a feed truck today is a lot compared to where we were. So that's been very interesting.

Mark McCully (00:21:56):
It reminded me, I think you've heard me say this before, Mike, you talk about the change in cattle type and I remember a meeting that was, it was John Stika and myself, we met with you, this would probably been 15, 18 years ago and you called CAB premiums, pennies from heaven. And we went home and said, because that stung. We didn't like that, no, but it was true. It was true. We said, we've got to create a bigger pull, right? The pull has to be bigger because pennies from heaven, what you meant by is you weren't changing management, you weren't doing anything different.

Miranda Reiman (00:22:27):
 It was just gravy.

Mark McCully (00:22:28):
in your behavior. It was gravy. And so that became a bit of a rallying cry for us for years and years of we got to make it bigger than pennies from heaven. So thank you for that motivation and insight because that's what we needed.

Mike Thoren (00:22:43):
See I got one right.

Kee Jim (00:22:48):
The blind squirrel finding the acorn.

Mike Thoren (00:22:50):
Exactly, exactly.

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Mark McCully (00:23:16):
How about on the animal health side, Kee? What changes or what changes 20 years ago did you think we would've been a lot further along maybe today than we're not?

Kee Jim (00:23:29):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Initially in the early eighties when I first started, the big challenge was weaning calves and bringing them directly into the feedlot. I can honestly say we made a lot of progress around that particular piece. We were able to, with data collection and the utilization of vaccines and antibiotics, we were able to make that process from something not bearable to something that was reasonable to work with. And a big part of that was prophylactic use of antimicrobials, temping of cattle, revaccination, and a series of things that worked out. And so we felt pretty good about going from mortalities in Western Canada in the five to 8% range and getting it down into the two and three, and getting it down to 10% pull rates. And we rode along that for many years and felt that we were making progress. But in the last 10 or 15 years, our numbers have not improved much.

(00:24:47):
And if anything are probably going the other way a little bit, but you have to be pretty careful in those broad generalizations about, because there's many different cattle types in North America, there's many different geographies. And remember we are feeding cattle longer for much longer periods of time. Carcass weights are increasing, days on feed are increasing. So obviously if you just look at the course number, you could say, well, things are getting far worse, but you need to parse that date out and look at it much more carefully than not. For example, if you look at our low risk population, say yearling cattle coming off of grass, those numbers have been very static. They're not really going sideways. And if you look at say our southeastern cattle that come out of that geography, they've been problematic for 40 some years. So those numbers definitely haven't improved.

(00:25:47):
And in fact, maybe going the other way. So it just depends on the population and the challenges that we're facing that may not be related to disease but may be related to increased days on feed, metabolic challenges. We're feeding cattle a lot harder than we ever did. We're using growth promoting products, repartition agents. So it's a complex thing and it's not as simple to say, well, the disease challenges are worse and cattle aren't as tough as they used to be. You'll hear people say that. I'm not sure how they would necessarily reach that, that conclusion. And you always have to remember that in the 40 years that I've been involved in it, there has not been a new cattle disease, the same pathogens have been around forever. And to say that there's something weird going on there or that it's antibiotic resistance, you really can't show that, right? You really can't prove that that's or what it is. So it is complex and I guess it probably in summary means that veterinarians have a long-term employment program.

Mike Thoren (00:27:11):
I agree with everything you said, surprisingly Kee, the prayer that we've done...

Kee Jim (00:27:17):
We find some common gound

Mark McCully (00:27:17):
We brought you guys in to not agree on everything.

Mike Thoren (00:27:19):
But I think in that deal, and I think just absolute closeout death loss is something people just have to get away from because the feeding periods are so much longer, so much more systematic stress put on these cattle. As I think about early in my career, really for probably the first seven or eight years, we have excellent databases and programs forever. So you could pull data, big logs of it and look, and our systems didn't vary at all. We fed a 740 pound in weight steer for 133 days and made 'em weigh 1,150 to 1,160 pounds. Today. We would feed that animal. If we could buy 'em, we'd feed that animal 200 days and make him weigh 1,450. So the metabolic stress, the opportunities to die, every day you're in a feedyard's an opportunity to die, and you just got to look at those. And so we don't total down on total closeout death loss as much, it's death loss by time period, so 30 days occupancy and things like that to try to get a more relevant deal. But the amount of challenge that we put to hit these better palatability endpoints has been significant from an animal health standpoint that has not been for free.

Kee Jim (00:28:35):
Yeah, I think the point is that a lot of it is non-infectious disease, so it's metabolic related and other things caused by extension of the feeding period, and dramatically. We're not talking a few days here, we're talking months. And so I think that's the context that we need and I think from a breed perspective and from the cow-calf perspective, I think sometimes they worry that they're producing cattle that somehow are more prone to die than they were 20 years ago. I don't believe that's the case at all,

Miranda Reiman (00:29:12):
But are there things that they could be doing or that we could be looking at even as an association and research and things like that that could mitigate some of the

Kee Jim (00:29:20):
Yeah, I think long-term projects that are now possible with improved genomics and tools, other species have been able to improve disease resistance and they've been able to improve survivability, look at what the dairy industry has managed to do and pigs and poultry. So it should be on the radar of trying to get at that piece genetically. And I think that it is possible, right? I think that over time you could produce cattle that are more resistant to our biggest problem infectious wise, which is BRD, right? It should be able to produce cattle that have better, less likely to die of BRD right over time. And I think that for most of the breed associations, that should be a high priority. You're looking at that. And I know Angus has explored some of that in the last few years.

Mike Thoren (00:30:20):
I would agree, but I'm just going to call it out here. I think the thing, and I think Angus has a piece in this, so I'm calling it out here, but on this morbidity deal, the infectious diseases, they are what they are. To Kee's point, we've never had one, a new disease pop up in the US in our careers. The deal that's amazing to me is the amount of heart failures we see today. And that was a diagnosis we had way back. And when I was cutting deads, I'm not sure I could tell you what a heart failure looked like. And today, every single day I have heart failures on our daily morbidity report. Yep. We're feeding cattle longer, we're putting more stress on, but it's an issue. So I'm not blaming breeds, but the system is what it is and there's more stress than we'd like to have in, how do we build cattle that can stand those types of pressures from the system?

Mark McCully (00:31:14):
And I want to call out a cooperation you guys have had with us where our primary work of what we call our heart health initiative, but to try to understand the genetic components of congestive heart failure. We're working with Five Rivers and you guys have been great at helping us identify cattle. We're getting them genotype, we're following 'em through the plant, we're doing heart scores, we're doing lung scores, we're trying to sort out this. So we appreciate you helping us identify the problem and then helping us collaborate to find solutions. Most definitely.

Miranda Reiman (00:31:42):
It's awful hard for Angus breeders to collect those phenotypes, so we're glad to have you guys there.

Mike Thoren (00:31:46):
And to Kee's point, it's hard where you guys have such a huge amount of the genetic pool out there. You go to a dead pile, I guarantee the heart failures are going to be blacks, I guarantee it. Well, guess what? Not saying

Mark McCully (00:32:02):
Your whole feedyard's black.

Mike Thoren (00:32:02):
A lot of blacks out there to drop from, but I do still believe it's more predominant and I won't let you guys off the hook.

Mark McCully (00:32:11):
No, no. And we don't want to be left off the hook. Whatever genetic solution or genetic part of this, we want to understand as you guys think about, is it specific, whether it's heart failure, whether it's AIPs, whether it respiratory disease, what do you guys think as it relates, as our breeders have put more and more emphasis and have the tools to put more emphasis on growth, which more emphasis on intake, how much of what you think we're going to sort is directly correlated to? We're pushing biological limits here around intake and growth, or are we going to find that these do you think are not associated or related characteristics?

Kee Jim (00:32:51):
I think so far I don't follow it as closely as I once did, but I believe the research at the moment is not pointing towards strong correlations between growth, take intake and heart failure or other disease. So they appear, which is probably fortunate, they appear to be somewhat independent, independent traits, and I think that's good news, right? It's not like the growth and maternal antagonistic relationship that exists, so you should be able to find cattle that can meet all of the desirable criteria. If you think about that one time again, Mike and I have been around probably too long. We were taught well, you're never going to find cattle that you like their growth and performance and you're going to like their carcasses. At the same time. Those traits are a little bit negatively correlated. Well, there's a thing called outliers and that's how breeds are built, right? You find the outliers and you propagate them in great numbers and over time, that improves the baseline quite a bit. I think that's what you'll find when it gets sorted out is that you will be able to continue to make progress on carcass traits, growth traits, and also be able to improve the health situation as well.

Mark McCully (00:34:14):
Do you find maybe said a different way, do you find these big intake, big growth cattle are harder to manage? Or do you have to change how you approach 'em at the feedyard or not so much?

Mike Thoren (00:34:25):
No, I don't think they're harder to manage. I think they're easier to manage generally. Now we have some elevation issues and stuff in our feedyards. Our Colorado feed yards sit essentially a mile high. We have some interactions there that we can't fully model and describe where we'll have more digestive problems, hence, and we have bigger intake cattle, no, so we'll moderate our diets. We'll feed a higher level of roughage there to try to offset it. But as far as managing something that eats, that helps you with the first big problem, they get to go see Dr. Kee if they don't eat.

Kee Jim (00:35:01):
Yeah, intake is a good thing and if they're vigorous eaters, that always makes things easier. But also I think you have to remember that in a feedlot, everything is pen-based, right? So you've got 300 head in a pen, you're looking at the mean intake, you're not looking at the highs and the lows, but it's pretty wild when you're able to look at some of that data. The individual animal fed data, the variation potential in intake amongst cattle of the same weight and age is unbelievable. I mean it really is. It's pounds per day. It's hard to believe that one animal can eat so much and others can eat so little, right? Truly, truly is amazing. But that range tells you that you can improve things genetically, right? Because we're as feedlot guys, we're interested. We like them to eat, but they also need to have the carcass deposition.

(00:36:01):
And what is interesting is that some of the really, really high intake cattle don't necessarily have the best carcass adjusted gain.

Miranda Reiman (00:36:09):
They're just putting it into fat,

Kee Jim (00:36:10):
No,

Miranda Reiman (00:36:10):
Or they're just using it

Kee Jim (00:36:16):
 Feed conversion's the most important thing and the challenge really for cattle breeders across the world is you can't really measure that very easily at the cow-calf level. You don't know what your most efficient cow really is, and we hardly do in the feedlot either except on a pen basis. But if you're in the genetic business, the idea is to try to get focused on feed conversion. And that's what my message to the Angus Association was. You've got to start doing more work where you actually feed cattle out to the end in those grow safe systems. And I want the bulls selected from the population that you can show me the actual feed conversion data on, not an interval in time, it's at the end that matters and where everything changes. So you need to feed steers, you need to get significant numbers of progeny from your best bulls and get probably 50 head out of a bull and feed those cattle out. And now I can tell you which one I want.

(00:37:26):
But you know what? It's been difficult for breeders to do that and I understand why the logistics, the scope, the scale, but the acid test of what's really the best bull has to come from progeny testing that sire.

Mark McCully (00:37:44):
And most of our intake today, nearly all of our intake today would be on yearling bulls for a defined period of time. And I guess I've always believed that's probably going to be pretty highly correlated. But to your point, the trait of interest for you as a cattle feeder is really cost, feed efficiency on probably a carcass weight basis. And probably that's hard to get to.

Kee Jim (00:38:08):
But when we've looked at that in our research programs though, the re-ranking that occurs from the time frame where you would conventionally evaluate a bull and you carry those cattle all through to the end significant re-ranking occurs, and that shouldn't be a big surprise because the last hundred days on feed is what it's all about. But I just think you need to do more of that kind of work to truly, you can figure out growth rate and you can figure out carcass from your existing methodology and your systems, but you can't measure the most important thing to a cattle feeder, which is conversion, right? I'm interested in the bull that gives me the progeny with the best conversion and that's been a pretty elusive target so far.

Miranda Reiman (00:38:57):
I think he very politely said you were wrong, Mark.

Mark McCully (00:38:59):
No, I know, and I stand absolutely corrected. You will not get an argument from me. We just had a survey that we did at cow-calf producers and cattle feeders and it was just a reminder when we asked for traits of interest, of course health is number one and feed conversion tends to be number two. And yet you ask cow-calf producers where they're putting selection pressure,

Miranda Reiman (00:39:20):
That's the bottom half.

Mark McCully (00:39:21):
It doesn't. It is just not been a trait one, it's not been a trait that they maybe felt like everyone understands the more efficient cows are, the more profitable cows, but we don't measure individual intakes and feed efficiency on a cow basis. And so it kind of gets a little elusive. So in time we'll get there.

Miranda Reiman (00:39:42):
We've talked a lot about the cattle and biology and those kind of things, but let's talk more on the marketing side and procurement side of things. How have things changed in the way you're procuring the cattle that you're feeding or that you're bringing into your feedyard?

Mike Thoren (00:39:56):
I think for us first to drive procurement's how we're selling cattle. When I started in the industry, it was open bid, bid and haggle, all kinds of games, just selling commodity cattle at the average and hoping you got 'em all moved as fast as you could so you could get more in. Then as we moved to grid arrangements, it took us a while to really understand those very well and how to optimize them. We stayed in that. We were stuck in our old paradigm about feeding them 133 days and guess what? We didn't get any carcass premiums. So we believed there were no carcass premiums to be got.

Miranda Reiman (00:40:33):
Just pennies.

Mike Thoren (00:40:34):
Yeah, just pennies. And so we started feeding them longer, doing things, more selection, pressure, opportunity. We really did move away from a more commodity cattle buy to focus. And in that transition, when we went transitioning from sales now to purchase, we've had some major changes in Five Rivers. So in my day as a Five Rivers management training and feedyard manager, our feedyards buy all their own cattle, we essentially had license to buy cattle in anywhere in North America because we were six feedyards and we didn't walk on each other. We all had our different relationships and stuff as we merged to Five Rivers and had at that point 10 feedyards and 11 feedyards. Now 13, we started walking on each other and we'd raise each other's bids unintentionally

Mark McCully (00:41:26):
The cow calf guys like that.

Miranda Reiman (00:41:28):
I bet that made for good phone calls between the procurement teams.

Mike Thoren (00:41:32):
And so we broke our purchase up regionally by feedyard to give everybody a deal. And that was twofold, really stop the internal competition, but also to build deeper relationships in the deal. If you've got to focus on an area, you've got to actually know the people, know the production, know the cattle, know what's going on in the area. And it concerted effort to buy more cattle directly off the ranch where it used to be very small percentage where direct purchased it today it's 20, 21, 22% of the cattle are direct, no intermediate area. And that's a result of that. And so we very much changed every operator. I've never met anybody that admitted they didn't have the best calves in the world. I mean I'm yet to meet that rancher, but they're not all the best. The sad fact is most of them are average, so they get bid around average.

(00:42:28):
There's some extremes on both sides. The poor ones never discount hard enough, I'll tell you that. And so that's the deal. But we work on that. We've tried a lot of different ideas and purchasing cattle, some types of grid arrangements, but the fact, results are at the end. It's just very difficult to ever get those concepts the right way is if people really want to take advantage of the power of their genetics, they just need to own them because my job's to buy 'em at a value every day and I'm going to do the best I can on that.

Kee Jim (00:43:05):
When I first started, I mean my strategy was focused around buying the highest risk calves possible from a health perspective. You know what to do with them. Well, I thought I did.

(00:43:22):
I think I was better than the average, but maybe not that good, but certainly the idea. So because I was veterinary focused, I thought, well, I might as well buy the highest risk calves. And then over time those high risk cattle in Canada started to disappear. So my fun was over from a competitive advantage point of focusing on those cattle. And then as systems get larger and you require more and more and more cattle, you suddenly when you're doing a little niche thing here and a niche thing there, that's just not enough cattle. So you're kind of got to get into the mainstream and kind of have to start bidding against outfits like Mike's here. And it's not nearly as much fun for cow-calf operators to believe that the market's not that competitive, where they're sadly misinformed because we're at it every day trying to get cattle bought to fill our feedyard.

(00:44:24):
So I'd argue it's the most highly contested space there is in the livestock industry is buying of feeder cattle. So our overall strategies as we've grown our organizations has been to, we've been down the pathway of trying to buy a lot of direct cattle. I mean it makes a lot of sense, but I think our total numbers of direct cattle would maybe be 10 or 15%, right? There's a whole host of reasons why that's a difficult game. But in the last 10 years, our biggest pivot has been towards beef on dairy cattle. So that's the major change from our perspective as an organization. We're heavily focused on trying to acquire, make arrangements with dairies across Canada and the U.S., own 'em as day olds, move them through our system. And that way we are having a profound influence on the genetics of the cattle and trying to leverage our knowledge of cattle production in that way, hasn't quite been as easy as we had anticipated. Let's put it this way. It's a lot more complicated than it looks on paper, right? There's quite a bit effort involved in doing it, but it is a big area of growth for us has been the B-on-D space in both countries.

Mark McCully (00:45:50):
On your beef-on-dairy experience, obviously those cattle tend to be tighter and more known genetics. Are they easier to manage from that regard? The variation? Is the variation tighter, I guess?

Kee Jim (00:46:03):
No, oddly enough, the variation is not as tight as we thought it was going to be because of

Mark McCully (00:46:11):
The beef and the dairy pieces coming together.

Kee Jim (00:46:12):
The dairy, they always talk about it being a fairly narrow genetic pool. Well it is, but it remember they were never selected for beef production, so they were selected entirely for milk production. So what you have is very much focused on one trait and everything else has been ignored. So we're trying to work our way through that, a whole deal. But certainly reduction in variation hasn't been as big. It just hasn't happened that way. And then trying to get figured out what the best beef sires are going to be in these situations, again, doesn't follow an easy theory in terms of what you should be doing. I'm of the opinion now that likely the best sires are going to be hybrids that are a combination of the marbling traits and the growth traits. That's the direction that we're leaning in strongly here.

(00:47:16):
But we're still trying to do the same thing. We're just trying to do it in another system. And what we like about it is it is a birth to death thing. We learned, again, you have to learn by baptism of fire. If you're going to play this game, you actually need to own calf ranches, not something I really wanted to do very badly, but otherwise your whole chain, it just doesn't work. So you've got to develop core competency in another totally different production system. So you got to get that variable out of there and then you've got to start working your way through it. But what is nice about it is that it is standardized in the viewpoint that you're putting three way cattle on feed, you're feeding them for a set period of time. You can manage your occupancy in the feedlot, you're not in the cash market every day. Those are some of the positives, but there's a lot of negatives associated with this as well. It should have been easier than this.

Mike Thoren (00:48:16):
I think one of the things we don't deal with it near as much as Kee does for a lot of reasons, but we do do it.

Mark McCully (00:48:23):
You were beef-on-dairy back when beef-on-dairy wasn't cool.

Mike Thoren (00:48:25):
Oh yeah. It wasn't cool. We did a

Miranda Reiman (00:48:26):
He learned all his lessons early.

Mike Thoren (00:48:28):
Yeah, but I mean honestly, it's interesting. The reason we're not bigger players in it today is it's our accounting system. We recognize profit at day of purchase, and so as soon as we take the risk on, we do it. So if you have a long-term commitment three years out or whatever for calves, you can't lay it off against anything. So we have an uncovered obligation. So it's a challenge too risky for us. Risky, so we buy 'em transactionally, but a production system is just something that just doesn't line up. But I think one of the things that's interesting as we talk about this, because we focus on the outcome traits and stuff and Kee hit on it, they're not easier. I mean, they're not easier than a straight Holstein calf. We feed a lot of those and love feeding them. And the issue is I think you've had industry selection and pressure over survivable calves that can survive in a calf hutch situation and basically intensively managed. They're set up for feed yard animals and stuff. You take this beef side of this thing that's not set up that way. And I think that environmental challenge is something we're focused Kee's point on the outcome. Well, they got to get out of the calf ranch to be there. And I think that's a challenge. I'm not saying they die like flies or anything, but there's a challenge there.

Mark McCully (00:49:40):
Well, it's an environment to your point, we've not probably accounted for.

Kee Jim (00:49:43):
Yeah, I have noticed the ones that don't leave the calf ranch, don't arrive at the feedlot,

Miranda Reiman (00:49:48):
Don't make money either.

Kee Jim (00:49:49):
I've figured that out, yeah.

Miranda Reiman (00:49:52):
So when you talk about the idea of the only way to capitalize on your genetic improvement is to own 'em all the way through. I mean is there, obviously the grid system hasn't worked well because it's complicated, but now there's the birth of verification programs and things like that. I mean, does that figure into how we pass that value back? Are those signals back to our cow calf producers?

Mike Thoren (00:50:15):
I think it's challenging. I think the opportunities are often imagined to be greater than they really are. And so there's some disappointment, but it takes a lot of trust. We do some deals where we have longstanding arrangements with people where we can do a true up on it, but you've got to have a ton of trust and people need to be real about the premiums and opportunities there. The truth is, our base price is always too high. We never buy one that's going to work, so we've got to get caught up for the rest of it. So

Kee Jim (00:50:49):
We've tried to have alliance programs and have had them for several years, but just in context, I think someone asked me, so I think I looked it up, I think in alliance feedback systems across our North American system, I think we had 62,000 head of cattle fed that either a portion or was owned by a primary cow-calf producer and we owned the balance of the cattle or we gave them the data. But that number has been static for 20 years. So the program doesn't grow and it doesn't decrease in size. It doesn't appear to be a compelling enough ...for now. I go and look at the returns over that timeframe. They've been better off being involved in that system than they have would've been by selling their calves. I can pull out the data, I can show that very clearly. Their average premium obtained over that very long interval.

(00:51:55):
It's 30 some years, it's about $74 a head. So it's pretty significant if you'd have stayed in it. But we just can't seem to attract enough people into those types of relationships because as Mike alluded to, they, they're fairly complex. It is a fair bit of math involved and you've got a fair bit of data tracking, and I think people are always disappointed. Nothing worse than finding out your cattle are right on the mean, horrifying to find out that they're slightly worse and rarely are they better. Well, that's the old bell curve in action, almost by definition, 12 and a half percent of the producers have superior cattle to the mean. So it's been difficult, if I could have scaled that, I wouldn't be doing the beef-on-dairy. But to me it represents an opportunity to scale and have a profound influence on the genetic base.

Mark McCully (00:53:03):
As you guys look, maybe switching gears now looking down, you've talked about changes that have happened in the industry as you guys envision the feeding industry in five to 10 years, what's going to be the biggest differences in your mind?

Kee Jim (00:53:16):
Well, I'll jump in there because Mike and I are probably not going to agree on this.

Mark McCully (00:53:22):
Finally.

Miranda Reiman (00:53:22):
Good.

Mark McCully (00:53:23):
We've been looking for something you guys don't agree on.

Kee Jim (00:53:24):
I think that you're going to see feedlots are going to get bigger and bigger at single sites, and there's going to be a reshuffling of the deck as to where feedlots are located, right? Because I think roller compacted concrete, a technology changes the game in terms of where you can actually put feedlots. I mean, let's face it. People often put feedlots where they live, right? Why do you have a feedlot here? Well, I live here, right? It's not a good primary siting criteria.

Mike Thoren (00:53:59):
My wife always loves the smell of a feedyard, come on.

Kee Jim (00:54:02):
And so I think you're going to see much, much larger operations at fewer and fewer geographies. I think that's one theme. And I also believe that in many situations there's going to be some type of decarbonization technology attached to the feedlot, whether it's bio digesters or it's a host of other things coming down the pike. And I also think that we're on the cusp of some major technology changes that will allow for sick animal detection to change from the 40 years that we've been riding horses. I think that's about, some of these things are about to be big, big in terms of what the impact is going to be.

Mark McCully (00:54:51):
Real quick, can you talk roller compacted concrete? Can you explain that real quick for those that maybe aren't familiar with it.

Kee Jim (00:54:56):
So the RCC or roller compacted concrete is, composition is the same as regular concrete. It's how it's put down where all the savings are. Roughly at least half the cost of concrete is getting it set, right? Here, you're putting it down in a mass form and you're just compacting it with rollers.

Mike Thoren (00:55:18):
It's more like an asphalt operation than a cement.

Kee Jim (00:55:21):
And so you can get the cost structure down to something that gets to be still expensive, but it gets to be a consideration for feedlots in a lot of geographies where you really want to put one and you don't like the weather, you can utilize this technology in our feedlots in Canada, we have converted all of them to RCC. And in the feedlot we're building currently in Nebraska, it'll be all on RCC as well.

Mark McCully (00:55:52):
And then does that also change the equation on your manure value and the ability...?

Kee Jim (00:55:55):
Totally. I would argue that you can't have a digester unless you're on concrete. The manure feedlot manure won't be clean enough. So the two things can be, well, they are complimentary when you put 'em together

Mike Thoren (00:56:11):
Kee and I'd be large energy czars if we could just get the BTU equivalent of feedyard manure extracted. A ton of feedyard manure has more BTUs than a barrel of crude oil, if you can believe now extracting it a little bit challenging.

Mark McCully (00:56:27):
How about other big changes at Five Rivers or the cattle feeding industry?

Mike Thoren (00:56:32):
I think Kee and I would debate on the impact of roller compacted concrete, and I'm not saying it's not, but I do have some concerns. And if you're wrong, you got a big old boat anchor out there that what are you going to do now?

Kee Jim (00:56:44):
The price of wrong is high, yes.

Mike Thoren (00:56:46):
And so I'm interested, and my concern is around animal welfare, essentially just in heat issues and stuff. I just want to see, I don't know. I just want to see that play out and stuff. And then there's some worker safety issues if we can get rid of the horses and stuff. I'm excited about that. If you believe it's coming, I'm interested. I love horses, but it's a piece of the equation. It's very complex and roller compacted concrete, it gets even more treacherous. And so those things are my concerns. I think on a technology side, Kee, mentioned this. So we've built our own software for 40 years in Five Rivers and predecessor, Continental Grain. I think we had very robust software and systems to feed cattle and operate and query general data, but data analytics was something that we really struggled at for years and spent a lot of money to try to get there.

(00:57:45):
And over the last five years, I've seen just general products come on that make that so much easier and so much more interesting. And we were finding out lots of stuff. I think Kee and his team, there's 50 PhDs, they got to do something, so what the hell? Torture some data. We have real jobs, we don't have time to dive in like that. But I think there's just a lot of interesting stuff there. And I think this AI is something I'm very interested in and does that, how do you deploy it? I think those things could be very exciting. This whole waste energy deal he mentioned. I'm very excited about those opportunities. I am hopeful that we could find a process. I think it's challenging, but I'm hopeful we could find a process to digest or convert pen packed, feedyard manure. But the challenges are very real, as Kee put out. It's not probable today that we do it. I'm just hopeful.

Mark McCully (00:58:40):
We probably touched on this already, I want to make sure I give you guys one more chance. As you guys think of speaking to Angus breeders, as they're thinking about five to 10 years down the road, and again we've hit on a few of these topics, feed to gain or feed efficiency and health, what else should be on the radar of the genetic engineers in the Angus breed?

Kee Jim (00:59:02):
It doesn't hurt to improve disposition along the way.

Mike Thoren (00:59:06):
It was funny you said that, because I was deciding whether I was going to do it or not, but I agree.

Kee Jim (00:59:14):
But the fortunate thing again is that it is definitely possible, but I think that the cow that tries to kill you should have another career. I don't care how good her calf is, right? But that's hard to do. And it is a meaningful thing at the feedlot level. And there's lots of data to show you that temperament and performance and stuff is related. But things like worker, just simple things, worker safety, wear and tear and equipment, just the stress of dealing with cattle that are not easy to deal with. And in our alliance program, we've got a few herds in there that haven't been much fun over the years. And the cowboys dread those pens coming in because, and those cattle have temperament issues.

Miranda Reiman (01:00:09):
It's interesting that you say that because we talk about it a lot at the cow-calf level and the labor shortages and things like that, but I don't think that cow-calf producers probably think about it often. And what that translates to in the steer mates, and

Mike Thoren (01:00:23):
I mean, if you get sets of cattle that you know are going to be treacherous, dangerous for your people, they almost get to be a no-bid situation at any value. I mean, somebody else needs to deal with them. So I mean, it's not something you get paid more for. You may not get paid at all if you have the alligators out there.

Miranda Reiman (01:00:42):
They're memorable in the worst way. Yes.

Mark McCully (01:00:45):
Reputation cattle. Not all reputation cattle are, mean good reputation.

Miranda Reiman (01:00:50):
No, that's right.

Kee Jim (01:00:51):
Yeah. So when a calf comes in and when he's got an ear tag in, it says from that mean old bitch, you know, don't want that calf very bad. So I'm thinking, I hope they send her to town at the same time, but

Miranda Reiman (01:01:07):
Take the ear tag out before you sell her.

Kee Jim (01:01:10):
Got a picture of that, Mike, I kid you not.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:15):
Well. I want to be respectful of your guys' time. You're busy here this week. Is there anything else that you would like to add? Otherwise, I have a random question of the week. If you could be doing anything else besides the career that you've chosen, what would be your alternate, what else would've you done with your career

Mark McCully (01:01:32):
Outside the cattle industry?

Miranda Reiman (01:01:34):
Outside? Sure. Yeah. Maybe outside the cattle industry.

Kee Jim (01:01:37):
I get to pick. I could have.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:39):
Yeah, you could have just the,

Kee Jim (01:01:40):
Oh, I think a professional golfer looks like the ideal career to me.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:45):
Do you like to golf right now?

Kee Jim (01:01:47):
Yes, I do. Yeah, but I do it very unprofessionally.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:50):
You don't get paid to do it.

Kee Jim (01:01:52):
Very few people have offered to back me or anything like that, so it's a bitter disappointment.

Mike Thoren (01:01:59):
I don't know. And you can make an adequate living. This is a socialist country. We're all getting paid the same, whether we're good or not?

Miranda Reiman (01:02:06):
 These are a lot of rules, guys. You can tell you're analytical minds.

Mike Thoren (01:02:10):
I'd probably be a bird dog trainer or something like that.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:13):
I ike that.

Mark McCully (01:02:14):
That'd be fun. Yeah.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:15):
Are you going to answer, Mark?

Mark McCully (01:02:18):
I don't know, I have no idea. I like cars. I think I'd have a classic car dealership somewhere.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:25):
Classic car auctioneer? Something like that?

Mark McCully (01:02:28):
Yeah, I don't know about auctioneer, just a trader.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:29):
Yeah. I like it. Good. Well, thank you.

Mark McCully (01:02:33):
Yeah, we just so appreciate you guys. And Kee, congratulations on your,

Mike Thoren (01:02:36):
Congratulations, Kee, that is a well-deserved, I'm excited.

Kee Jim (01:02:41):
I think they're just running out of

Miranda Reiman (01:02:44):
The list is pretty short. Don't give us that. The list is pretty short.

Kee Jim (01:02:47):
They're old dead people, I think. Try this guy. He's still alive.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:54):
Are they going to roast you tonight? I have not been to the cattle feeders Hall fame. Are we going to hear some stories?

Mike Thoren (01:02:59):
I hope so.

Kee Jim (01:02:59):
I don't think so.

Miranda Reiman (01:02:59):
Would you like to add to it right now?

Mike Thoren (01:03:01):
I'll stand up for the Rose team. I've got some stories.

Miranda Reiman (01:03:03):
You've got anything you want to add right now? The mic is open.

Kee Jim (01:03:04):
It'd be a long lineup. Don't worry. Stay away from these guys.

Mark McCully (01:03:09):
Well, congratulations. Well deserved and Mike, a future inductee. I have no doubt. I look forward to that day when we do this.

Mike Thoren (01:03:15):
Are you the first Canadian inductee? That's cool.

Mark McCully (01:03:18):
Very cool.

Kee Jim (01:03:20):
Yes. That part I looked up for sure.

Mark McCully (01:03:22):
Yeah. Very cool.

Mike Thoren (01:03:24):
Cool. Very good.

Mark McCully (01:03:25):
Well, guys, thank you. Your insight, and again, prior sharing with our board of directors, a couple of different times breeders, been on programs, here. We just always appreciate your minds and your insight and your vision, and so thank you for joining us. I

Mike Thoren (01:03:40):
I think in closing, the one thing I would like to say is I think you as a breed, Angus, CAB, together. I think you guys have done fantastic things for us as an industry. Keep doing them. You're not perfect, but you're pretty damn good.

Kee Jim (01:03:53):
I would echo those sentiments, the second time Mike and I have agreed on anything, really.

Miranda Reiman (01:03:58):
Excellent. We'll pass those comments along back. Our listeners will hear that, and thank you. You guys continue to keep bidding against each other on good Angus cattle.

Kee Jim (01:04:06):
Yeah.

Mike Thoren (01:04:07):
Yes.

Miranda Reiman (01:04:08):
Thanks for listening today. If you want to keep up on conversations like that one we just had, go ahead and click subscribe to Never miss an episode. This has been The Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.