The Truth Must Be Discovered: McCulloh on Data, Validation and Authenticity

 When Brian McCulloh found himself in Viroqua, Wis., in 1984 to manage and grow the Angus herd at Woodhill Farms, he knew he’d be learning as he went. In the decades that followed, Brian used that as a personal motto of sorts, always drawing on his curiosity and need for answers to make improvements. Early on he selected the type of cattle he wanted to create and then stayed focused on that for his entire career, building a legacy Angus brand with his program as a result. Brian says the key has been avoiding distractions, believing in the data and then following the plan. This episode covers everything from his early years to whether it’s easier or harder today and even the story of why he decided it was time for a new chapter.  


HOSTS: Mark McCully and Miranda Reiman   


GUESTS: Brian McCulloh was an Iowa farm boy who enjoyed showing and judging cattle in 4-H. He was on the judging team at Iowa State University and graduated with a degree in agriculture finance. McCulloh spent a short time as Activities Director at the American Angus Association before he and his young family headed to Wisconsin to pursue an opportunity to raise Angus cattle. They’ve been there ever since.

Woodhill Farms, operated in partnership with Dan and Anne Borgen, received the Certified Angus Beef ® Commitment to Excellence award in 2000, and McCulloh received the Angus Heritage Award in 2020. He served on the American Angus Association Board of Directors and has been active in the Beef Improvement Federation.


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SPONSOR NOTE: Deer Valley Farms has brought back their Spring Cow Sale, and they invite you to join them this Saturday May 11th at 11 a.m. Come see the unique offering of 4- and 5-year-old donor cows and natural calving cows, along with a variety of bred heifers out of contemporary groups not typically featured.

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Transcript

Miranda Reiman (00:00:03):

Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman with my co-host, CEO of the American Angus Association, Mark McCully. And Mark, can I just say that I would love to start out every week talking to breeders? It's Monday morning and we got on the Angus conversation first thing.

Mark McCully (00:00:21):

It was a great way to start the week and we had Brian McCulloh from Wisconsin, of course, Woodhill Farms, and I think it's his optimism and his confidence and authenticity we talked about, but just it was a boost of excitement and optimism and confidence to take on the week.

Miranda Reiman (00:00:45):

Absolutely. We talked about, we did touch briefly on his transition period. I know most of you probably know he just had his final sale there at Woodhill and it was a bit of a transition period for him, and I guess it gave me a little bit like graduation vibes, right? It's spring right now when we're talking about new beginnings, and it seems like that's a time when a lot of people like to impart a lot of wisdom on young folks, and I think this one is just full of a lot of things that he's learned over his career in the business,

Mark McCully (00:01:18):

And I think that brings on, it does give you an opportunity to kind of step back, right? And you me mentioned graduation, whether it's just these change in chapters of life or career, it does make you a little introspective at times and to sit back and think about where you've been and what you've learned and where you're going, and I think Brian's one of those guys that probably does that. He doesn't probably wait for big chapter changes. He tends to probably do that as a daily habit, but it was good. It was good to kind of visit with him at this point to kind of look back and look forward at the same time.

Miranda Reiman (00:01:57):

It was a good reminder to me also how quick things go. I mean, we were discussing the early years of their marriage and when they made this switch and just all the things that have happened in between. I know you've got a daughter graduating from college and my daughter's graduating from kindergarten, so it'll probably be like that. In between those two phases.

Mark McCully (00:02:20):

Everyone says it. Things go so fast and especially when you hit these and you're starting to look back, he was talking about dates and I was like, that wasn't that long ago. And they went, oh no, that was like 20, 30 years ago. That was, I guess a long time ago. But those things don't feel like they were that long ago and just again, always a good reminder to live every day and appreciate every moment.

Miranda Reiman (00:02:47):

Absolutely. Well, I think our listeners are going to enjoy this one and hopefully it leaves you with a lot to think about.

Mark McCully (00:02:54):

I'm pretty sure it will.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:00):

Today on the podcast we've got Brian McCullouh from Woodhill Farms at Viroqua, Wisconsin. Am I saying that right, Brian? I have practiced that a lot.

Brian McCulloh (00:03:10):

Yeah, that one is a hard one. And it's actually viro-qua

Miranda Reiman (00:03:14):

Viroqua

Brian McCulloh (00:03:16):

Wisconsin.

Miranda Reiman (00:03:17):

There we go. Wisconsin. He's an Iowa Farm boy by birth. Went to Iowa State University where he judged on the livestock judging team, have a lot of experience kind of in that area. And you were a one-time employee of the American Angus Association early on in your career.

Brian McCulloh (00:03:35):

I was lucky enough to be a summer intern the summer of 1980 between my junior and senior year in college and then attended grad school for a year in Virginia at Virginia Tech. And then Dr. Lipsey announced him leaving as director of junior activities and going back to University of Missouri. And I interviewed because at the time, we were proud parents of a six month old and I was in grad school when I had a stipend and I could have gotten a job, and so I decided I wanted a job.

Miranda Reiman (00:04:20):

It was an economic decision. That's

Mark McCully (00:04:22):

Right. You were at Virginia Tech with Dr. Minish, correct?

Brian McCulloh (00:04:25):

That is correct. Yep.

Mark McCully (00:04:27):

Very good. And helping with the judging team.

Brian McCulloh (00:04:29):

That is exactly right. And at that time in the mid seventies, Dr. Minish and Dr. Hunsley were two people that judged a lot of county fairs and state fairs and all the big shows. And as a sophomore in high school, Dr. Minish judged our county fair, which at that time in Clinton County would've been 300 steers in a county fair. It was a hot bed of a lot of families that knew how to feed cattle. And I remember seeing this guy come to our county fair and thinking, wow, I would like to be like him.

Miranda Reiman (00:05:19):

Well, I was going to ask where you met Lori in the turn of events there, but so if you already had a kiddo and you were back, that must've been in your undergrad.

Brian McCulloh (00:05:27):

Yeah, well, no, actually right on the line. Miranda, we actually met, Lori and I met at Iowa State. I waited tables at her sorority and we were married right out of college. That's what you did in the spring of 1981, and we graduated in May. And on July 18th we were married. And April 15, do your math. Ryan was born at that time, so he's a honeymoon baby.

Miranda Reiman (00:06:07):

Pretty cool. And you've got

Mark McCully (00:06:08):

That's awesome.

Miranda Reiman (00:06:09):

Two additional kids after that.

Brian McCulloh (00:06:11):

Yeah, we have three children. Ryan was born in 82, Matt in 84, and Allison in 85. Awesome. And back to where we were before. Yes, I was director of junior activities, started the fall of 1982 and on February 26th, 1984 landed here at Viroqua.

Mark McCully (00:06:38):

Awesome. And Brian, as we were getting ready to start, you said now we don't need to do long introductions. That Angus Heritage Foundation Award that was bestowed upon you did a great job and it did, and congratulations on that. You've truly served in a number of industry leadership roles from American Angus Association to Beef Improvement Federation, I believe chairman there, and so appreciate for all that. So I know a lot of folks are very familiar with your background and your leadership and your influence in the industry, and so I think that, but appreciate, I know you wanted to get to it and talk about breeding cattle, but I also think about, if I understand, so talk about your transition up to Wisconsin. Was it Dr. Minish that made an introduction for you to make that move?

Brian McCulloh (00:07:27):

Exactly. At that time, the director of junior activities oversaw what they called the summer job program. Okay. So I was looking through young Angus members, junior members would send an application to the American Angus Association looking for a summer job and Angus farms would say, Hey, I'm looking for someone. So Dr. Minish called me in about November that fall, fall of 1983 and say, Hey, do you know anyone who might be looking to run an Angus herd? I've got a man I'm working with in or in the Midwest is what he said. And actually, to backtrack a little bit, I had met Dr. Dan Borgen and his wife Anne when I was traveling with the Virginia Tech judging team. Every fall we would go up through Ohio State, go on up into Michigan, go to Premier Beef at the time was at Howell, Michigan, went over to Michigan State and we would end up at Eastern States for that judging contest. Dr. Borgen and his wife Anne were just starting out their quest to be in the Angus business. And I wrote him down. And Mark, I don't know if you remember Miranda, have you ever had anybody show you the little black date books that you used to have when you worked for the American Angus Association? I had one of those little date books, 1983, and I remember writing down inside because he didn't have a cell phone,

(00:09:15):

But I wrote down on the inside Dr. Borgen because I thought if I meet this man again, I want to be able to remember who it was. Anyway, Gary called me. Dr. Minish called me then while I was at the association, I had just been through my one year annual review by then, executive secretary Dick Spader. And if you remember, if you look at where registrations were at the Angus Association in 1982 and 83,

Mark McCully (00:09:48):

It was not a prosperous time.

Brian McCulloh (00:09:50):

No, it wasn't. And I was a 23-year-old kid working for the American Angus Association, and I literally remember thinking if the board decided to work with a business management consulting team, I could just envision that group of business management consultants walking in and saying, Hey, what's that kid do? So I thought, heck, I'm 24 years old. So I told Gary, I called him back at the end of the day and I said, what would you tell me if I told you I was interested in that position? Both Lori and I grew up on farms in Iowa. Viroqua is exactly three hours from where she grew up and three hours from where I grew up. Wisconsin is not a hot bed of Angus or beef cattle at the time. And we thought, guess what? Let's give it a go.

Mark McCully (00:10:57):

So Brian, was that ultimately the goal of 23-year-old Brian, was?

Brian McCulloh (00:11:04):

No, no. It wasn't the goal. It's a great question. After my summer internship at the association, here's another caveat, and I remember sitting down with John Crouch and Dean Hurlbut at the end of my summer apprenticeship at a restaurant in St. Joe. It was my last hurrah, by the way. I only spent four nights nights in St. Joe that summer. I traveled with every single regional manager throughout the United States and was able to actually see a lot of cattle and it was a tremendous advantage. But anyway, John and Dean and Dick sat down and said, Hey, would you want to be a regional manager? I told him no, which was a bad idea. Okay,

Miranda Reiman (00:11:57):

But you don't... four nights at home, Brian.

Brian McCulloh (00:12:01):

Right. Exactly. That was it. I said, I don't know if I want to, can travel that much.

(00:12:08):

So my senior year, Mark, back to your question, was that my goal when I was a junior and a senior at Iowa State? No, I switched over to Ag Finance. My senior emphasis on classwork was a lot of ag finance. I was going to go ag business. Okay. Because quite honestly, a lot of the professors, my advisor said, you want to go into industry, meaning at that time a company named Syntex, they were big players in animal health. But again, I was a bit of a purist or an altruist and I didn't think I wanted to travel. So I was not looking at going out and starting an Angus herd... was not. But I will tell you, traveling with all those regional managers, seeing the cattle, I thought, I'm going to give this a go in 1984 and it worked.

Miranda Reiman (00:13:20):

Talk about what it was like when you got there. I've heard you say that you had 35 cows and you were building fence every day, but just give us a picture of February, 1984. Is that what you said?

Brian McCulloh (00:13:32):

Correct. There wasn't anything here, which in and by itself was liberating if you look back. Okay. There were no expectations of Brian because it was just starting. I didn't have a grandfather or a father who had been in the business and was standing over me saying, Nope, it's not going to work. And I was able to have autonomy. And that was a key component to the success of Woodhill was I met a man that being Dr. Borgen, who he himself was an orthopedic surgeon and when you're around people who know what they know and know what they don't know, those are great people to work with and he is that man. So we started off, and the other piece of the luck, I'm going to keep coming back to luck because I was born at a right time. I was born in 59, through the mid sixties and through the seventies we were changing the English breeds from the baby beef era of the sixties into growthier animals.

(00:15:00):

The continental cattle came to America in the mid sixties. And so when I left the association, it was a crossroads for the Angus breed because we had, while we made the cattle grow more and we were single trait selecting, we really were in the late seventies. We were single trait selecting for frame people say we were selecting for growth, we were selecting for, and I was able to say from the beginning, I'm going to focus on creating a set of cattle that are calving ease. These were the original value propositions to cattle cese, good mothers and marbling. And also at that time we had conversion from EBVs to EPDs. Dr. Richard Willham is a professor I had in class at Iowa State. He was working with the Angus Association. They were just introducing the full animal model and it was perfect timing for me to put into practice the fundamental applications that I was exposed to in college and it worked.

Miranda Reiman (00:16:31):

I feel like this showcases your optimism a little bit though, Brian, because you say you were born at the perfect time and you got into it at the perfect time. But just a few minutes ago you told us that registrations were tanking and most people wouldn't say this is a great time to be in the Angus business.

Mark McCully (00:16:48):

And the farm economy in that time was also not flourishing.

Brian McCulloh (00:16:52):

Yeah, no, the farm economy was real bad. And again, I use the statement in the Angus heritage video. Lori and Brian were truly the image of two little mice or rats getting off a ship with our suitcases at a time when everybody else

Miranda Reiman (00:17:17):

Was getting on.

Brian McCulloh (00:17:18):

Yeah. They're like, we're leaving because there was a farm sale. There were five or six farm sales every weekend in the local newspaper in the spring of 83. So the optimism, but we're going to circle back to this Miranda because it also entered into my decision of the last two years, time and a place, and because I was energetic and optimistic and confident and I didn't actually know what I didn't know at that time. A

Mark McCully (00:18:01):

Little naive.

Brian McCulloh (00:18:03):

I thought I was Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber. So you're saying there's a chance?

Miranda Reiman (00:18:13):

So when did you start to feel that tide? I mean, first off, surely in that first year, there were some times when you were less than optimistic, maybe talk about them and when did you feel it turned the other way like, Hey, I think it is going to be successful. Yeah.

Brian McCulloh (00:18:29):

First of all, keep in mind, Brian and Lori were young. We were having children. We were in love as we still are today. But the point is you are just out churning, doing it. I bought Holstein bull calves at three days of age for a couple years and we at that time, Packer Land had a program called Tend-R-Leen. Okay. There was a teachable moment. I was buying a hundred dollars bull calves putting 'em on a bucket of milk, replace for 30 days, and then shifting them over to just grain Miranda. That's all they had. And I saw Holstein steers. We were finishing Holstein steers at 14 months. That weighed 13 and a quarter.

(00:19:19):

So I did that for a couple years. You asked about timing, so now we're into 1986. I consign some bulls to the Platteville Bull test and to back up a bit, I bought some of our foundation cows came from Graham Angus at Albany, Georgia, who was a very strict performance herd of basically Emulous-bred cows in Georgia. And the summer of 80 when I was a junior apprentice, I saw these cows and it was kind of an epiphany because every other Angus place you stop at, they want to show you their donor cow or one cow. I saw a whole herd out grazing an hour north of the Florida border, and I thought, these cows are truly in sync with their environment. They were slick, they were grazing. So we founded our cows with 10 cows from Grahams.

Miranda Reiman (00:20:23):

So you thought, let's bring 'em to Wisconsin.

Brian McCulloh (00:20:25):

Yeah, yeah. You can move

Miranda Reiman (00:20:27):

They're in sync with their environment. Let's bring them north.

Brian McCulloh (00:20:30):

Yeah. Well, and that's a good point because I also learned and I learned by doing, see that's another thing. The truth can't be told. It has to be discovered. And I was able to do things, not just speculate how it might work. I was able to actually do it, brought those 10 cows to Viroqua. You can move cattle from the southeast to the Midwest. It's hard to take these cattle to those humid climates down in the southeast and they were a performance set of cows. Anyway, I started to say I consigned the pen of bulls to the Platteville bull test because I knew I had to validate my records and we had top indexing sire group, which was a big deal. That was a little bit of a win in 1987 and you got a little validation, Miranda, you see. So I thought, well, that's good for me.

(00:21:36):

And then we had our first private treaty bull sale. Well, I call it private treaty. We had had it in our garage in 1989, and I sold a bull to Roy Wallace that I had pre priced at $4,000. He was a Traveler out of a PS Sasquatch out of a Sky High. So he was had a sire stack Miranda of calving-ease cattle. He was moderate birth weight and you know who else drove. So Roy Wallace was in our garage and Howard Hillman drove to the sale. And do you know what helped me? When I was at Virginia Tech, I met people, right? Mark and Miranda, you run across people. So when you meet people, it's a value add for discovery. And these people knew who I was and said, Hey, I'll go over there. I pre price that bull on a big chief tablet for $4,000. I stood up in the garage and said, okay, will you give, I see two names, three names. There were three names on the bull, Roy, Howard, back and forth, 7,600 bucks to select Select Sires in 1989. That was a big deal.

Miranda Reiman (00:23:13):

I bet you felt like you won the lottery at that point.

Brian McCulloh (00:23:15):

Well, I did. It was validation. Then also the summer of 88, I thought there was a test herd for select SIS here in Wisconsin. Dr. John Anderson, he was the state beef extension veterinarian, and he was on the WBIA board, Wisconsin Beef Improvement Association board with me. And he had consigned a bull to the Platteville Bull test that I saw the year earlier. And I said, John, do you by any chance have any daughters of the mother of that bull? He said, yes. I went down and I saw cow who happened to be a Traveler 23-4 daughter. Her mother was a Jauer Band 703 daughter who has a Band 105 son, and the next dam was a Band 105 daughter and Miranda, when you get cattle that are stacked in there like that, that are producers, it felt like a no brainer. She was nursing a bull calf the summer I saw her, and that bull calf turned into being the high selling $25,000 bull at the Wisconsin Bull test called GT Maximum that was purchased by ABS and Stevenson's. I bought her while she was nursing GT Max and she was a standout. The phrase, the great ones make it look easy.

(00:24:55):

She did.

Mark McCully (00:24:56):

So Ms. Traveler 58,

Brian McCulloh (00:24:58):

Ms. Traveler 58,

Mark McCully (00:24:59):

Yeah. So she would she be the most influential cow in Woodhill?

Brian McCulloh (00:25:05):

Yeah, 50%. When we sold the cow herd, 50% of the cows go to her. And it's not because I embargoed them, Miranda, that was the other foundation principle. I was able to honestly evaluate the stock every single generation, and if they didn't pass the smell test of fundamental economically relevant roles, that being getting bred, having a calf, weaning a decent calf, having a good udder being sound, you got rid of them, radical concept.

Mark McCully (00:25:54):

And then later you bought Bon View New Design 878 on his mother. Correct? Correct. You had a nice little track record of that.

Brian McCulloh (00:26:03):

Yeah, but you know what I knew over through it all truly, I say this kind of was fortunate that it worked, and I didn't try to replicate that because we knew that the odds of that working every time there's the book Moneyball, it doesn't work every time. And so I brought, we did, we owned 878 and his mother and he went on to be a very prominent seller of Angus semen,

Mark McCully (00:26:54):

One of the most influential bulls in the breed. Absolutely.

Miranda Reiman (00:26:58):

So when you are out there picking, making breeding decisions and things like that, I would say that there are some that would say you're kind of a dichotomy. You've spent a lot of time in the show ring, Brian, but you've also are a big proponent of all the tools and have been an early adopter genomics, and how do you incorporate both into that selection decision?

Brian McCulloh (00:27:21):

Yes. I liked, when I started out as a kid, I thought showing cattle was pretty cool and I liked judging because it was an opportunity to make a decision and then you could say, did I make the right one or not? So I've always paid attention to looking at the stock, but I also learned that there are things that we can't measure visually with phenotypes, and this is founded in, I mean, Mendel, central conclusion that you can't draw from external resemblances what is under the hide. So all I did was I combined the two. I just combined fundamental good stockmanship observing stock, managing stock, and then I used the objective tools appropriately, which simply doesn't mean more is always better in mother nature, that usually isn't the case. It's not linear forever. There's a point of diminishing return in most things, and that is the balancing act.

Mark McCully (00:28:57):

Brian, is that, do you find it harder or easier today to breed the kind of cattle you want? I mean, we've got more and more and more data when there was little data, right? You could go and get visually what you liked and then maybe match the data. Today, obviously you've got this whole pile of data and genetic selection tools plus your eyeball. So is it harder or easier to build the kind of cattle you want?

Brian McCulloh (00:29:22):

This is a key question because it's easier to breed the kind of cattle I want, and I'll repeat it. And Lori always says, Brian, you're repeating yourself. It's easier to breed the kind of cattle I want because we have better tools than we've ever had. The challenge today for Angus seedstock producers and probably commercial men to some extent, is it's easy to get distracted with all of these tools and you lose your focus of what you're trying to do. So the key to what you said Mark, was is it easier or harder to breed what you want? It's easier to breed what you want. It's more difficult to stay focused on what you want.

Mark McCully (00:30:22):

Now that's really well said, Brian. So maybe do you find it's harder to define what you want because there's so many different signals, if you will, being sent today that maybe weren't being sent 20, 30 years ago. The big economic signals around carcass merit, heck, we put all these sale reports out there, and I sometimes wonder, I say it all the time, I wonder at times, are we doing a disservice? Because it almost can be distracting for someone that's on a program and then they see success across the fence or across the country with a different philosophy. So would you agree it's harder to maybe define what you want today?

Brian McCulloh (00:31:00):

No, you can define what you want, and really the market signals that we started with, the combination of traits were based on the, I always assume this is my objective, and I think this is a key point as well here. There are many different breeding objective goals that a commercial or a purebred seedstock operation can aspire to. There's no right, correct recipe. So we formulated from the beginning that I was going to assume that I'm going to conception to consumer from in 1984. That was the plan, recognizing that not all of our customers retain ownership on the cattle to the rail, but I believed in 84, and I still believe today that eventually through the use of supercomputers, we are going to be able to track value. And so I've always operated under the premise that I'm going to touch those bases that will result in the most profitable cattle from conception to consumer here in the Midwest. Okay, that's the other caveat. So Mark, it's still just as easy to establish your breeding objectives. It's easy. Again, it's just that it's easy. It's tempting to stray and lose your focus because again, of as you mentioned, the sale report syndrome and it's like, oh man, I just saw that bull brought $50,000 or a hundred thousand dollars and I maybe need to try to raise one of those. And we really do need to continue to ask ourselves, what market did that bull sell into? Okay,

Miranda Reiman (00:33:14):

When we started out, you had mentioned the tools work, and Mark had even put in his notes that that's a phrase that you've said to us often that the tools work.

Mark McCully (00:33:25):

You actually, I think, Brian, you call me on occasion, maybe when you see something or something on social media or something out somewhere, I think, and I have always, you call me from time to time just to say, I want to remind you these things work really well. Where's that confidence come from?

Brian McCulloh (00:33:43):

Because I've done it. I've witnessed it. I went back and looked at our carcass data we worked with in 1996 and 97. I have a list in my folders of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 commercial test herds that I was working with progeny, testing bulls, and I have all the carcass data from 96 and 97. Miranda, when were you born?

Miranda Reiman (00:34:20):

84.

Brian McCulloh (00:34:22):

Okay. You weren't very old then. And I look, Mark, this declaration speaks to the data works. I hear people say, well, we really haven't increased weaning weights over the years. So I don't think that these EPDs work. I look at the carcass weights on the cattle, sire-identified cattle that were coming at that time and they were in the sixes and sevens, carcass weights, Miranda. So my weaning weights collectively, my average weaning weights haven't done a lot, but guess what I've done? I'm running cows, I'm running more cows on the same amount of acres. I've done a better job with my grass managing my grass, but I learned if that calf weans it with an actual weaning weight of 585 pounds at 180 days, and I expose that calf to feed, it's amazing the acceleration of these cattle today once you give them feed. And so that's what people just need to remember is yes, this data will get us there. Now, in the same vein of the data working, I think it's appropriate to remind us as Angus breeders, all we've done, if we're honest with ourselves since 1968 when the continental cattle started taking market share from the Angus breed as Angus breeders, we've simply selected for growth for 55 years.

(00:36:31):

It was measurable. It was easy to see the results. And so over those years when people would call you up and say, Hey, what are your best calves by? What's your best calves by, was code language for what are the biggest, stoutest calves? All we've done for 50 years is we've selected for growth in the Angus breed. And people say, no, we haven't. We pulled birth weight back. We did. We learned a lesson on birth weight. We fixed udders. We did that pretty well. We've improved a lot of traits, but so now we're at a crossroads as an Angus breed where maybe in a grass environment we've created some cattle that maybe are challenged to sustain a pregnancy year after year after year after year with varying environmental challenges. And so maybe we pump the brakes on selecting for growth. Maybe we're going to have cattle that are selected for maternal traits.

(00:37:50):

And we've been talking about this for 40 years. I mean, systems approach value-based marketing, all of these buzz phrases have been around for 40, 50 years, but it's now in the name of the truth being can't be told has to be discovered. We've kind of been to the edge of the cliff on growth. So it's okay when people say, what's the best bull? Maybe it's going to be an Angus bull for making females. That's in the 50th percentile of the breed for yearling weight people. That's okay. And people say, well, they're not going to gain competitively in the feedyard.

(00:38:37):

I could debate that because what is average today for an average non-parent Angus bull, I think is I've got our sale catalog here for yearling weight. The 50th percentile is 110 pounds for a non-parent bull. Guess what? Maybe it's time for us to work on some other traits, folks, and that's okay. You see, and I think the challenge for everybody is just dealing with the tradition of our industry whereby for over 150 years, we basically looked at cattle and made our decisions and we're in a new era now, using data is a new value system for buying and selling stock, and it flies in the face of what our dads and granddads told us.

Mark McCully (00:39:44):

As you think about this, I mean, I love your, and this is why I always enjoyed talking to Brian. You think big and you think with a broad and wide lens, and we need to, as you think about the Angus breed five, 10 years down the road, if you've got either your magic wand or your crystal ball, whether what you want it to be or what you think it will be, what will the Angus breed contribute to the beef industry in the next five to 10 years? Will we see more specialization of genetics? Will we lose market share to other genetics that are going to bring solutions that the breed doesn't offer?

Brian McCulloh (00:40:29):

I think that, yes, my prediction, perhaps I'm wanting to use that word more and more rather than we got do this. I'm going to try, perhaps

Mark McCully (00:40:42):

It's the warmer, softer, Brian, okay, go.

Brian McCulloh (00:40:48):

Yes, it is. It's the new me. Perhaps that we'll see some specialized seedstock operations going forward. And again, that's okay. And they're going to focus on producing a set of bulls that will, because I think our tools will be refined at identifying more profitable cows, which is going to demand identifying the phenotypes that we need to feed the data system that our quantitative animal breeders will utilize to come up with some tools. So they'll be specialized, there'll be bulls produced that their focus is to be used on Holstein cows. That's reality. They're going to be bulls produced that are going to be terminal sires for beef operations, and we'll make those big, powerful, high growth, high marbling, high carcass weight cattle.

(00:41:55):

But you also remember in this process, there still are a lot of people, commercial men who don't rely on their commercial herds for their revenue stream. And so they kind of have them because it feels good to have cattle. So the risk that we run in creating specialized seedstock is they get used in the wrong environment. So there's going to be some terminal bulls that are going to go into a commercial herd, and they should have been utilized as terminal sires and John Q commercial man is going to keep daughters back out of them, and he's going to blame it on the Angus breed that those cows were high maintenance, hard doing and didn't breed back. And so there's some consequences, right? And that's the balance mark for the breed. Mom told us we can't run with scissors or we'll poke our eyes out. So we're giving everybody these good, sharp tools, but there's going to be some people that misuse the tools and they're going to get hurt by it.

Miranda Reiman (00:43:14):

So is that burden on the seedstock producers marketing and education, or where does that burden lie in making sure the tools are used?

Brian McCulloh (00:43:22):

It's on the seedstock producer beyond a shadow of a doubt. And people don't want to. We as seedstock producers, it's our role to establish contact and credibility with the commercial producer because we've been doing it. We know these cattle. And I think, again, people want to blame somebody else on occasion when it doesn't go well. But again, this is a highly complex process. The random mix of genes that occurs every time you breed a cow to a bull are infinite. And we want to boil it all down and simplify into little sound bites. And that's another challenge today with instant communication. Boom, solve my problem completely, boom, boom. And we're dealing with a process that there's always going to be give and take. Okay, so all you're really trying to do each time, and this is what I stress to our commercial people, you just are working on improving that cluster around the average of your herd.

(00:44:54):

You're working on improving that plus or minus cluster of animals a little to the right for this combination of traits because of the problems that happen is what costs people time and money, both in management time and frustration and economic. So rather than we as an industry bickering about, well, that's the problem, and you guys told us this and you told us that, cattlemen know what works. They know. Leverage all the information you can. Continue to honestly evaluate your stock and move forward. Now we're going to catapult a little because I think we've got 15 minutes. The other part of this is just selling your product at a value add. Okay? And that is a whole different beast, Mark and Miranda. Marketing your breeding stock or marketing your commercial stock. And in both cases, being a student of the industry is important in order to do both of them effectively. Okay,

Miranda Reiman (00:46:32):

So you just made your own transition there, Brian. I don't even know what question I should ask at this point. Where are we going with this interview?

Brian McCulloh (00:46:40):

Well, you agree though, right? I mean, we've talked to this time about the management component of the business that being genetic, we didn't talk much about the nutrition, but as a seedstock, which I'm assuming there's a large percentage of people that listen to the Angus Conversation that are seedstock producers. And I've talked to other young producer groups, it's like, how do you market your cattle?

Mark McCully (00:47:12):

Yeah, I guess when you set out to build what you have today, did you have a clear, I mean, I think about you've built a brand, right? And your program is a brand, and I think it's why you've had success. It's the consistency of that. How do you help maybe a young person starting up think about what their brand is, what they want it to be, and then maybe where does that discipline to stay focused on that brand promise come from?

Brian McCulloh (00:47:45):

It comes from continuously learning and looking inward and empathic listening, which is learning. I read lots of things. I stay involved in the industry. I listen. I take pieces from many different books. Book being a figurative, it's in talking to someone, you see something somewhere and you take that piece. But to market effectively when you have conviction. And in the process of establishing conviction, I also think it's important to maintain humility. Okay? Because humility, we all know we're just a little speck that we're just here for a short time. And the minute that a customer senses arrogance on the part of you as a provider, it's a bit of a turnoff. And it isn't an act. This isn't about conspicuous humility. It's who we are if we really explore each day of our lives. And so I think for people establishing the brand, you have to believe it. You have to continue to explore. And when you see it and believe it and live it, it shows, it's the same as parenting. Miranda and Mark. Our kids know little kids know if they see mom and dad, morning, noon, and night, the same person.

Mark McCully (00:49:52):

Authenticity. I think we all crave authenticity. Maybe now more than ever.

Brian McCulloh (00:49:57):

I think we do. We crave it now more than ever. The world with instant communication. There are no, the minute that a person makes a mistake, it's all over, and which is creating a fair amount of anxiety today.

Mark McCully (00:50:16):

Absolutely. So lots of stuff I would love to unpack more on there. But before we run out of clock, Brian, I would like to have you speak a little bit about the chapter you're in right now and how did you get to this chapter and where, what's the future look like?

Brian McCulloh (00:50:35):

The why we arrived and then how the why is Dan Borgen is 83, Brian's 65, and we started this dialogue two and three years ago, and we both agreed that if we found ourselves in a situation where we were unable to capture and therefore realize the value that was created, we would feel like this endeavor of 40 years would be all for naught. So Dan gave me the leeway and he said, so what are you thinking? And I said, I think the fall of 23 looks like a good time from a fundamental standpoint of where the industry was. I'm 65. I have felt myself over the last three to four to five years becoming just a little more, less tolerant. I thought I would be more tolerant with hitting curve balls that I was presented with, and I was less tolerant. And it turned into, personally for me, I'm a little bit of a high strung person, and Lori bore most of the burden when I would come in at the end of the day when things didn't go well, and I said, this is unfair to her.

(00:52:01):

And I looked inward and I said, maybe it's time for you to back away. None of us are as good as we once were. Okay. And so we all experience physical, mental, and professional decline. Guess what? I said, you know what, time for you to maybe try something else, we set out to have a dispersal sale. Got a call. Guy said, would you entertain an offer to sell the entire herd? And I thought, wow, that'd be great. And I priced them and they took 'em. And I'm going to stay on helping TWG over the next as long as they want me. I mean, I'm mating the cows this spring. Jarad Carroll is the cattle manager down there, and I'm going to go ahead and say it right now. He's in more of a fishbowl than I was when I started. And again, back to legacy ranches and farms where son takes over for dad. That's a challenge for the younger person to measure up to the dad or the father, granddad. Okay? And I do feel like I might want to, I read a book called Strength to Strength, and it talks about a transition in life. And so now I'm thinking, huh, I might like to transition and I'm still healthy. Lori's healthy. We have three great kids. They've carved their own path. I'm not sad. They're not sad. This wasn't their deal, and that's okay too.

Mark McCully (00:53:59):

Well, I was just thinking about as the decisions between having a dispersal and probably seeing the cows get dispersed across the Angus community versus keeping the herd intact. I could see both being fulfilling maybe in just different ways. One, to see your whole body of work stay intact, but the other is now to see your genetics be, not that they weren't before, but to see those cow families be dispersed across a whole lot of different programs. So interesting decision to kind of wrestle with, I guess

Brian McCulloh (00:54:35):

It was, and you're exactly right that I can go 50 50, okay? The rational part of me, which I still want to believe, I have a rational part of it, not just emotional but rational. Part of me said, thought about the minutiae and the logistics of a dispersal sale, and it wasn't very palatable. I would also tell you this, this is a selfish component. There were going to be cows that would've sold at a dispersal sale for a fraction of commercial cow price. And this is a hard pill for most people to accept. But after 40 years of focused decision making, even though this particular cow didn't look like she was a world beater, phenotypically, which is still how everybody makes decisions on which one is the best, it was hard for me to watch somebody pass judgment on this cow and say, well, she's not worth much, because I can assure everybody who's listening, I have cows in the pedigrees over 40 years that we're not the coolest kid in the class, but genetically they were strong.

(00:56:08):

And so that cow, that was kind of a plain Jane, ended up having a heifer who ended up having a heifer that was at the top of her class. That one is a tough one for most people in production ag, but the beauty is coming all the way back to the beginning, this database and to the Angus breed's credit. You can do whatever you want to do. And we have such good tools, which goes back to my comment about easier or harder today, Mark, it's easier today because the tools are better. What's hard is staying focused on your breeding.

Mark McCully (00:56:49):

I guess, Brian, as you've gone through this process, anything maybe that was terribly surprising or learnings that you would want to share to others that might be dealing with a similar situation? Again, this wasn't something, you woke up one morning and started jotting down on your piece of paper. It's been obviously a progression of thought over time. And so things you've learned?

Brian McCulloh (00:57:15):

I would say learned and realized, perception and reality. Okay, I don't care what a person is doing, there's perception and there's reality. I like to think about absolute truth and I'm still searching.

(00:57:39):

Okay. But I used to be more compelled to want to force my opinion of what was the right kind on people than I am today, because I know there are different cattle for different situations and environments, and that comes back to the humility piece. But again, growth for my first 20 years, I was fine. I wanted the big stout, high gain and high intake cattle. And today I know that too much of anything can cause problems, and so I'm pumping the brakes. The other thing I'm going to tell you about this decision to do what I did, the more I know, the more I know I don't know, and I'm more cautious. And when I was young, I was more bold. And so now it's time for the young people to make some of those bold decisions, and some of 'em are going to work and some of them aren't going to work, and that's okay.

Mark McCully (00:58:55):

Yeah. Awesome.

Miranda Reiman (00:58:57):

Is it going to be hard to step away the day-to-day stuff?

Brian McCulloh (00:59:01):

Yeah. Yes, definitely. I like, I really enjoy going out and looking at it. This set of bulls that we just sold was the best set we'd ever had, and I never dreamed folks that we could make purebred Angus cattle that good. Okay. 20 years ago when I was on the board, I predicted that by this time in 2020 something, the high selling bull in beef industry for semen sales was going to be a composite. I really did. It hasn't happened yet. That's a challenge dealing with composite and crossbred bulls. It's not a challenge, it's just something the Angus breed needs to be aware of. I think it's coming. It's going to come at us pretty hard because of the Angus dominance. And see, I can say this now, and that people can choose to agree or disagree, but the Angus dominance in the commercial cattle industry is going to cause a swinging of the pendulum back to crossbred cattle. And that's fine. I understand heterosis and it's real okay. But to the point, we sent a couple steers to the locker in the last two weeks that weren't good enough to be bulls, and they had carcass weights of 962 pounds and they were 13 and a half months old, people. Amazing what we can do. And I would tell you, their sisters are still making good cows. So you can put it all together. You just have to remain disciplined and focused and honestly evaluate the stock every step.

Mark McCully (01:00:50):

Excellent.

Miranda Reiman (01:00:51):

Well, we have kept you probably long enough this morning. We always end on a random question of the week. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we throw you a random question?

Brian McCulloh (01:01:01):

No, I'm as optimistic as I have ever been on the cattle industry. This isn't any kind of pessimistic person that you've been talking to here. It's just a season in my life, and I've always considered myself a rational person, and this was a rational decision.

Mark McCully (01:01:25):

That's awesome.

Miranda Reiman (01:01:27):

Well, I will say that it does appear that optimism. I mean, we started out at that, continued all the way through, which I can totally appreciate. You haven't become a curmudgeon, Brian. So good. Random question of the week. You have earned a lot of honors and you've judged a lot of shows, kind of prestigious shows and things like that. Of all of those honors, which one was the one that you maybe take the most pride in or that you maybe as a young person had thought, oh, wouldn't it be cool to someday fill in the blank that you were then able to reach in your career?

Brian McCulloh (01:02:09):

Judging the shows has been great. I loved it. Totally, totally. I was always all in at that process, but maybe it's the season in my life. The Angus Heritage Award resonated strongly, and it wasn't like I aspired as a 22-year-old to do that. I aspired to be a successful breeder of Angus cattle, and I thought it would be cool to judge, but the judging events came and went. But the Heritage Award did stop me a little bit in the name of reflecting, and it felt, it was an honor. So I would say that one stands out and back on the judging, just briefly, I said it in that video, but I was a kid who was just hoping that I wanted to be sure that the judge saw me. And I know we only have at the National Junior Show, for instance, you've got 15 minutes to place the class and talk 'em and keep it going on a schedule. And I invariably have thought over the years, I probably didn't give that junior, but that's why I enjoy it. It's still a big part of it. And incidentally, I think there's opportunities for there to be crossover in that arena with continually breeding more profitable Angus cattle as well as cattle that suit people from a visual appraisal standpoint.

Mark McCully (01:03:56):

Awesome. Well, Brian, you're not asking me that question, right, Miranda? Sometimes she turns around and makes me answer that. I don't have a clue

Miranda Reiman (01:04:04):

No, we don't care yet. Mark, you're not old enough to ask that question yet.

Mark McCully (01:04:09):

I would say, and I had a real life experience last week, you talk about judging. And of course anybody that knows me knows that that was a big, big part of my path. And I love judging teams, judging shows. And I actually got a call last week to judge a major steer show, and I laughed because there was a time in my life where I told my wife Gerry, I said, oh my gosh, this is a call that I would've dreamed about at a stage of my life. And I was flattered, but I said, no, I don't do that anymore, for multiple reasons. But it's just funny how perspective and goals and things that at one point in your life are everything. And not that I was still honored. My good friend Randy Daniel once said, he said, it's not that I want to keep judging, but he said, I want them to keep calling me and asking me to judge. And that's kind what that felt like last week. It's like, oh, well, I haven't totally been forgotten about. So that felt good. It felt good.

Brian McCulloh (01:05:12):

And I'll just toss in at this moment, and you feel the same way, Mark, I found myself, and I still do to this day, where I get to the end of, say, the division champions are all out in front of you. And I really do find myself more inclined to say, Hey, it doesn't much matter to me from this point. You guys decide who you want to be champion. And it's not that I take it lightly, but I deep down know that the difference between this champion and this reserve was minimal. Minimal in the grand scheme of things. And that's probably when I know it's time for me to step away from the process because I just don't have that burn to say, by God, this isn't as good as anything I've ever seen that ate grass.

Miranda Reiman (01:06:10):

And with that, Brian will get no more calls to judge any more shows.

Brian McCulloh (01:06:15):

That's right.

Mark McCully (01:06:15):

No,

Miranda Reiman (01:06:18):

We really appreciate you being on Brian. But really, even more than that, appreciate the impact that you've had on the breed and your continual wisdom. And I think it might look like we brought you on to be a little bit of a cheerleader and you say the data works and all of that, but I think also to be a critic at times, and we've appreciated that too, that you always call in with good questions. And if you have a question, you've already thought about it a lot. And we appreciate the heck out of that too.

Brian McCulloh (01:06:46):

And as far as being a cheerleader now, I mean, I am who I am. You asked, and I told you, and I believe it, and I did it, and it worked. It's not about, yeah, I guess it is.

Miranda Reiman (01:07:00):

You're the most black and white cheerleader we've got, Brian.

Mark McCully (01:07:03):

And you said it truth can't be told. It has to be discovered and you've discovered it. And once we discovered truth, we tend to become an advocate for truth. And so you give us a lot to think about. You give us a lot to be encouraged by and optimistic about. And so again, I always enjoy my conversations from you, but I always sometimes leave scratch in my head like you ask good hard questions and think in big ways. But that's how we get better. And we appreciate you coming on here and sharing some of that with our listeners and with us here this morning.

Brian McCulloh (01:07:41):

Thank you.

Mark McCully (01:07:42):

Been a pleasure.

Miranda Reiman (01:07:44):

One of the easiest ways to have influence in the industry is to stay active and informed and we can help. Our Angus Journal is the flagship publication of the American Angus Association with more than a hundred years of history of delivering relevant Angus news. Right to your mailbox. Head over to Angusjournal.net to subscribe today. This has been The Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.